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Forum: Wishes and new features

Topic: Circular numbering & color-coded phrase division (every 8 bars) on the waveform
Hello everyone,I would like to raise a thought and at the same time a proposal that I believe should be self-evident in all DJ software, but amazingly it doesn't exist in any of them — and I am posting it here on the VirtualDJ forum.What exactly I am proposing:I am referring exclusively to the visual representation directly on the waveform. It would be extremely useful to have distinct colors on the vertical grid lines and circular numbering every 8 bars, which would repeat cyclically, showing clearly and immediately the structure of the musical phrase.Why the existing circle and bars are not convenient:
Today in VirtualDJ, although the small circle and the bar-counting indicators are located in the center of the screen, in practice it is not convenient at all. Having to constantly look there instead of the actual waveform bars, or looking at a total numerical counter (e.g., 47.1 bars), has zero practical usefulness while playing live. No DJ can afford to get constantly distracted or do mental math during a mix. The practical solution:Instead, if the waveform itself featured color-coded lines and circular numbering every 8 bars, you would know instantly with just one glance and without taking your eyes off the waveform exactly where you are within the phrase.The value in DJ workflow:This way, a DJ can prepare transitions, mix points, and cyclic loops with absolute timing precision, seeing exactly where the 8-bar phrase ends, without ever losing visual contact with the playback bar. (Of course, such a feature could be provided as a toggle/option in settings, so that those who find it essential can turn it on).The question to the community and developers:Does anyone know why the DJ software industry as a whole has ignored such a simple, practical, and "musical" need for so many years? Is there some technical limitation in VirtualDJ or elsewhere, or has a standardized philosophy simply prevailed that no one dares to break away from?
 
geposted Sun 04 Oct 26 @ 3:06 am

  1. The waveform already shows the 1st beat of every 4 bars in a darker colour onon the grid measure line
  2. You can enable a barcounter overlay on the waveform that shows you the measure and current barnumber (<measure number>.<bar number>)
    I'm not sure why you think that has no significance because it's actually telling you want you want to know - which measure you're in and what barcount within the measure.
  3. The bar counter display is honestly not that far away


1) and 2) basically covers your needs. You are just asking for a different, more colour representation which can work, bit it doesn't mean the existing representations aren't sufficient/convenient enough, it's just they may not work for you.

Tbh, I think there is a growing overdependence on waveform display instead of knowing your music/how to count bars in your head, but I guess that is minority opinion in modern times.
Remember in the days before software and even now playing physical media, people count bars and do phrasing just fine.
 
Thanks for the feedback, DJ VINYLTOUCH! I totally respect the traditional approach and the "vinyl era" mentality — we all know how to count in our heads and feel the phrase. However, the proposal is not about replacing listening skills or basic musicality; it's about ergonomics and split-second visual clarity. A few points regarding the current tools:4-bar vs 8-bar phrasing: You mentioned the 4-bar indicator, but my proposal is specifically about 8-bar phrase division. Modern track arrangement and transitions (House, Nu-Disco, Pop, Funk) strictly revolve around full 8-bar phrases (32 beats). Showing 4 bars still forces you to mentally track "first 4-bar or second 4-bar?", which misses the point of a true phrase marker. Numerical counters (<measure.bar>): Having to read numbers like "47.1" requires mental math in real time to figure out where you are within an 8-bar block. Directly color-coding or cyclically numbering the waveform eliminates that extra mental step completely. Workflow optimization: Just like waveforms, Hot Cues, and BPM displays don't make a DJ "lazy" but rather faster and more precise, a toggleable 8-bar visual aid simply frees up cognitive space during complex 3 or 4-deck mixes.Since this is proposed as an optional setting (toggle), it wouldn't interfere with anyone who prefers the traditional view, while offering a huge workflow improvement for those who want instant visual phrase division directly on the waveform.
 
Unless the grid is corrected for every single over/under run or bridge then your circle would display garbage, and if you have that corrected then the get_beat_counter will give you all you need.
 
DJohn . GL wrote :
Modern track arrangement and transitions (House, Nu-Disco, Pop, Funk) strictly revolve around full 8-bar phrases (32 beats).


Only EDM, Electronic music and Intro/Outro edits follows that.

Many other Genres like Hip-Hop, Reggae, Dancehall often don't have such a structure and can start in between beats, or within the bar. What is most likely is that a full song would most likely have at least a bar of music in 4/4 time, and any reference timing/location could be derived from that.

DJohn . GL wrote :

Showing 4 bars still forces you to mentally track "first 4-bar or second 4-bar?", which misses the point of a true phrase marker. Numerical counters (<measure.bar>): Having to read numbers like "47.1" requires mental math in real time to figure out where you are within an 8-bar block.
Directly color-coding or cyclically numbering the waveform eliminates that extra mental step completely.


You're probably the first person I've heard describe how they do phrasing like that. Normally people mark their entry point and exit points for mixing, and points 4 and 8 bars out if possible to aid mixing in/out if possible. Anything else, people are more concerned on which beat the song is currently playing (so that they don't clash with the phrasing whrn bringing in a song.
You still have the same problem counting 8 bars depending on where you are in the song (which 8 bar stretch are you on?).

If you need 8 bars it's because you're counting down to a certain point, so all you need to do is add 8 to your barcounter reference start point and you're done.

You can immediately know what beat in a bar you are at (which is more important to know how to bring in a sing at any particular time relative to the already playing song), by the counter numbers and or phrase indicator, and once applied with a start reference point (probably marked by a Point of Interest) can tell you exactly where you are, in terms of whatever divisions as multiple of a bar, you want, with larger grid markers marking a 1).
You may think coloring eliminates processing, but I'll argue it just shifts the processing elsewhere. I now have to decipher what a color means relative to a bar number when glancing at a waveform, and there is other noise (the colors of the actual waveform) to obstruct me in that (all shades chosen have to contrast nicely with the waveform, which means they will be slightly different from each other (for max contrast in all cases, making deciphering even harder).

DJohn . GL wrote :

Workflow optimization: Just like waveforms, Hot Cues, and BPM displays don't make a DJ "lazy" but rather faster and more precise, a toggleable 8-bar visual aid simply frees up cognitive space during complex 3 or 4-deck mixes.Since this is proposed as an optional setting (toggle), it wouldn't interfere with anyone who prefers the traditional view, while offering a huge workflow improvement for those who want instant visual phrase division directly on the waveform.


I agree that it helps, but as some point, if you can't listen to your music and have an idea of where you are (at least what beat your on) and how to mix as a result, I don't think you know your music well enough. As a result you'll have to be glued to your screen to mix, and probably miss important things in the dance environment itself. With 3 or 4 deck mixing, you have to be even more on the ball with your eyes, hands and ears in order to react quickly, and looking at even more waveforms is even more distracting/delaying to that reaction time.
That is different from a cue point, which you'll normally store as a reference in advance, probably hit on a controller in minimum time, and then get your focus where it's more important - the dancefloor + your decks.

I'm not saying that there isn't value in your proposition, I'm just saying I'm not convinced it would be better than what already exists.
What it does sound likes it that a double bar counter is what you want (which is probably doable with script and addable to the skin).
 
Thanks for the insights, LocoDog and DJ VINYLTOUCH. I totally get your points regarding track analysis and how different genres have varied structures. You are right that proper beatgrids and existing counters can do the job if you rely heavily on numbers or mental math. My suggestion simply came from a desire for maximum visual ergonomics—cutting down those extra fractions of a second spent translating numbers into phrase positions during complex mixes. It’s clear this is more of a niche preference rather than a widely demanded overhaul, but I really appreciate the technical breakdown and the alternative perspectives. Keep up the great work with VirtualDJ!