DJAuz
Hi VDJ,
I thought there used to be a bug forum, but I can't find it so if I'm in the from forum, oops!
I found a bug in VDJ 7.3 Pro to do with custom EQ frequencies.
The default values are of course 6500, 1700, 200
If you keep them as default, then everything works fine, what I'm presuming happens when default is:
BASS: 0-200
MID:200-1700
HIGH:1700-6500
However I noticed that when you change a value, say for my example the bass value to 100 it SHOULD then work like this:
BASS: 0-100
MID: 100-1700
HIGH: 1700-6500
But what happens is the difference frequency is no longer being controlled by EQ, only the bottom end of the default frequency, like this:
BASS: 0-100
MID: 200-1700
HIGH:1700-6500
What happens is the missing frequency range remains FULL ON. So in this scenario, frequencies between 100 and 200 remain uncontrollable by the EQ.
To replicate this problem change the frequency values to 6500, 1700, 100, kill the bass, mid and high, and you will still here the sounds between 100 and 200. Whereas you should hear nothing at all! If you change the option back to 'full' you then here no sound at all when you 'kill' all three EQ's. I might not be understanding the bug properly, but I think it's safe to say it is a bug, I think no matter what custom values you choosing, killing all three EQ's should kill the sound completely.
Thank you so much for this feature, I know I've personally wanted it for many many years.. It's not a HUGE issue, but it did catch me out last night when I killed the EQ's and music was still playing!
Cheers,
Gray
I thought there used to be a bug forum, but I can't find it so if I'm in the from forum, oops!
I found a bug in VDJ 7.3 Pro to do with custom EQ frequencies.
The default values are of course 6500, 1700, 200
If you keep them as default, then everything works fine, what I'm presuming happens when default is:
BASS: 0-200
MID:200-1700
HIGH:1700-6500
However I noticed that when you change a value, say for my example the bass value to 100 it SHOULD then work like this:
BASS: 0-100
MID: 100-1700
HIGH: 1700-6500
But what happens is the difference frequency is no longer being controlled by EQ, only the bottom end of the default frequency, like this:
BASS: 0-100
MID: 200-1700
HIGH:1700-6500
What happens is the missing frequency range remains FULL ON. So in this scenario, frequencies between 100 and 200 remain uncontrollable by the EQ.
To replicate this problem change the frequency values to 6500, 1700, 100, kill the bass, mid and high, and you will still here the sounds between 100 and 200. Whereas you should hear nothing at all! If you change the option back to 'full' you then here no sound at all when you 'kill' all three EQ's. I might not be understanding the bug properly, but I think it's safe to say it is a bug, I think no matter what custom values you choosing, killing all three EQ's should kill the sound completely.
Thank you so much for this feature, I know I've personally wanted it for many many years.. It's not a HUGE issue, but it did catch me out last night when I killed the EQ's and music was still playing!
Cheers,
Gray
geposted Fri 30 Nov 12 @ 1:54 pm
DJAuz
EDIT: After playing around with it more, I don't think my statement wasn't completely accurate, because I've found no matter what custom EQ frequencies you use, you cannot kill the music completely by turning off all three EQ's, which isn't how it should be? Or am I not understanding it completely.
As soon as you change the EQ to 'Full', it kills the music completely, once it is set to Parametric, it seems impossible to kill the music completely with the EQ's? Weird?
Cheers,
Gray
As soon as you change the EQ to 'Full', it kills the music completely, once it is set to Parametric, it seems impossible to kill the music completely with the EQ's? Weird?
Cheers,
Gray
geposted Fri 30 Nov 12 @ 2:33 pm
kradcliffe
Correct. You can't kill the music completely using the parametric setting.
Keith
Keith
geposted Fri 30 Nov 12 @ 4:31 pm
DJAuz
Hi Keith,
thanks for the reply.
Do you agree with me that you should be able to, or did you mean that the way it is is correct?
Cheers bud,
Gray
thanks for the reply.
Do you agree with me that you should be able to, or did you mean that the way it is is correct?
Cheers bud,
Gray
geposted Fri 30 Nov 12 @ 4:35 pm
the SOUND INSURGENT
The way it is is correct.
geposted Fri 30 Nov 12 @ 5:39 pm
DJAuz
If that is true then I don't understand parametric! haha!
I thought the idea of the new feature is to adjust frequency cut-offs for the EQ. So you're just lowering or lifting the cutoff points. That logic would suggest that no matter the values, killing all the EQ's should kill the sound completely. I must have misunderstood, is parametric a different equation?
Perhaps someone could explain it to me?
Thank you!!! :)
I thought the idea of the new feature is to adjust frequency cut-offs for the EQ. So you're just lowering or lifting the cutoff points. That logic would suggest that no matter the values, killing all the EQ's should kill the sound completely. I must have misunderstood, is parametric a different equation?
Perhaps someone could explain it to me?
Thank you!!! :)
geposted Fri 30 Nov 12 @ 5:47 pm
groovindj
EQ doesn't have to be "full cut" or to kill the music completely when you turn it down.
Not all EQs work that way.
This is really only a fairly recent addition to DJ mixers - some people now expect "full cut", whereas on older mixers you'd have maybe 6 or 8dB of boost or cut and that was it.
The EQs on my hifi amp for example are +/- 5dB.
On a Xone:62 DJ mixer the mic EQs have +/-15dB and the music EQs have +6dB but -26dB.
So in simple terms the "adjustable frequency EQ" option in VDJ (it's not really parametric) doesn't have a huge dB cut range.
Not all EQs work that way.
This is really only a fairly recent addition to DJ mixers - some people now expect "full cut", whereas on older mixers you'd have maybe 6 or 8dB of boost or cut and that was it.
The EQs on my hifi amp for example are +/- 5dB.
On a Xone:62 DJ mixer the mic EQs have +/-15dB and the music EQs have +6dB but -26dB.
So in simple terms the "adjustable frequency EQ" option in VDJ (it's not really parametric) doesn't have a huge dB cut range.
geposted Fri 30 Nov 12 @ 6:42 pm
DJAuz
It's weird, it still seems like a bug to me. What you said makes perfect sense, I've seen that before for sure.
If you load up a song, kill all the EQ's, then go into options and toggle between 'full' and 'parametric' you will hear the sound toggle between completely off and a little bit of noise. It just doesn't seem right to me, still. Also, if you keep the song playing on 'parametric' and adjust the three frequency values, you'll hear the sound change, like a pass-filter. If the new parametric setting changed the eq's from 'full cut' to just a partial dB cut, then theoretically then the sound shouldn't change when you change the parametric values.
If this is how parametric does work then there really needs to be a third option will customized frequencies and a full cut when all EQ's are 'killed'. It would seem that traditionally killing the bass meant 'full cut', just like right clicking on the EQ with the mouse, at least from many versions ago in VDJ history (I've only ever known the EQ's to full cut in the VDJ internal mixer, until now).
Before I had a USB controller I had an analogue Behringer mixer, which I used with VDJ. The bass cut-off frequency was always lower than traditionally VDJ was, I always thought the bass cut-off frequency for VDJ was too high (bled too much of the mid's away), so I was initially completely stoked at this feature, but it just seems 'wrong', IMHO, I don't know.
I still don't know if this is how it was supposed to be or if it is in fact a bug.
Again like in the OP, this isn't a MASSIVE issue, one just has to be aware to cut the volume and not rely on cutting the EQ. 95% of the time I would cut the song with the volume fader anyway, it was just in some mixes it was more effective to kill it with the EQ. Personal preference.
Perhaps a developer could give some word in here, identify if it's how it's meant to be, or if it's a bug? If the first, can a third option be implemented as described above?
If you load up a song, kill all the EQ's, then go into options and toggle between 'full' and 'parametric' you will hear the sound toggle between completely off and a little bit of noise. It just doesn't seem right to me, still. Also, if you keep the song playing on 'parametric' and adjust the three frequency values, you'll hear the sound change, like a pass-filter. If the new parametric setting changed the eq's from 'full cut' to just a partial dB cut, then theoretically then the sound shouldn't change when you change the parametric values.
If this is how parametric does work then there really needs to be a third option will customized frequencies and a full cut when all EQ's are 'killed'. It would seem that traditionally killing the bass meant 'full cut', just like right clicking on the EQ with the mouse, at least from many versions ago in VDJ history (I've only ever known the EQ's to full cut in the VDJ internal mixer, until now).
Before I had a USB controller I had an analogue Behringer mixer, which I used with VDJ. The bass cut-off frequency was always lower than traditionally VDJ was, I always thought the bass cut-off frequency for VDJ was too high (bled too much of the mid's away), so I was initially completely stoked at this feature, but it just seems 'wrong', IMHO, I don't know.
I still don't know if this is how it was supposed to be or if it is in fact a bug.
Again like in the OP, this isn't a MASSIVE issue, one just has to be aware to cut the volume and not rely on cutting the EQ. 95% of the time I would cut the song with the volume fader anyway, it was just in some mixes it was more effective to kill it with the EQ. Personal preference.
Perhaps a developer could give some word in here, identify if it's how it's meant to be, or if it's a bug? If the first, can a third option be implemented as described above?
geposted Fri 30 Nov 12 @ 7:02 pm
DJAuz
Haha, maybe we're all wrong, reading this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_(audio)#Parametric_equalizer
:)
From wikipedia:
Parametric equalizers are multi-band variable equalizers which allow users to control the three primary parameters: amplitude, center frequency and bandwidth.
If that is the implementation in VDJ7.3 then I was COMPLETELY misunderstanding the logic, in which case it's not a bug at all! In which case I'm even more confused about the values and how to set them to my style... hum.
+1 for third option 'custom cut-offs'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_(audio)#Parametric_equalizer
:)
From wikipedia:
Parametric equalizers are multi-band variable equalizers which allow users to control the three primary parameters: amplitude, center frequency and bandwidth.
If that is the implementation in VDJ7.3 then I was COMPLETELY misunderstanding the logic, in which case it's not a bug at all! In which case I'm even more confused about the values and how to set them to my style... hum.
+1 for third option 'custom cut-offs'
geposted Fri 30 Nov 12 @ 7:10 pm
DJAuz
Okay, scratch everything, I don't think it's a bug, the bug was just me!
Does someone want to make it easier to understand and programme parametric EQ?
http://www.astralsound.com/parametric_eq.htm
Gah, it's frightening! All I want is to cut less of the mids when I kill the bass EQ!!
Does someone want to make it easier to understand and programme parametric EQ?
http://www.astralsound.com/parametric_eq.htm
Gah, it's frightening! All I want is to cut less of the mids when I kill the bass EQ!!
geposted Fri 30 Nov 12 @ 7:31 pm
groovindj
That's why I said that VDJs "parametric" EQ isn't really parametric - at least not at this stage. Maybe it will be in VDJ 8?
It would have been more accurately described as "adjustable frequency EQ" I think.
Some mixing desks have sweepable frequencies, so the band is adjustable, but without Q they're not parametric.
It would have been more accurately described as "adjustable frequency EQ" I think.
Some mixing desks have sweepable frequencies, so the band is adjustable, but without Q they're not parametric.
geposted Sat 01 Dec 12 @ 7:03 am
dizzyrocks2001
Just go full kill, it's the only way to fly!
geposted Mon 03 Dec 12 @ 6:46 am
DJAuz
So basically what we're left with is either a fully working, bug free parametric equalizer, or a buggy manual frequency equalization.
If it's working, then the three configurable variables are amplitude, center frequency and bandwidth.
If not, and in fact the three configurable variables are the frequency cut-off values, then it's not working.
I'm more inclined to think it's a fully working parametric equalizer, IMHO. It just seems that it makes more sense, and that I just had a misunderstanding on how a parametric EQ works!
If that is true, and it's bug-free, then I still think we need a third setting, a complete cut-off, manually adjustable frequency cut-off equalizer.
The 'full' setting is how it's always worked, and I still stand my that the upper bass frequency is too high, and bleeds too much of the mids on kill. Boo! Back to the 'one day it'll happen' board! :P
If it's working, then the three configurable variables are amplitude, center frequency and bandwidth.
If not, and in fact the three configurable variables are the frequency cut-off values, then it's not working.
I'm more inclined to think it's a fully working parametric equalizer, IMHO. It just seems that it makes more sense, and that I just had a misunderstanding on how a parametric EQ works!
If that is true, and it's bug-free, then I still think we need a third setting, a complete cut-off, manually adjustable frequency cut-off equalizer.
The 'full' setting is how it's always worked, and I still stand my that the upper bass frequency is too high, and bleeds too much of the mids on kill. Boo! Back to the 'one day it'll happen' board! :P
geposted Mon 03 Dec 12 @ 3:41 pm
andytaylor125
Given how much better the new EQ sounds, I'm sticking with the parametric EQ rather than going back to the crappy sounding one, you just have to use it slightly differently.
Before if I was mixing a track out I would kill the bass as the bass line of the new track came in, then fade out the highs then finally fade out the whatever was left using the "mids" dial on the old EQ.
Now, I just do exactly the same, but the final stage is lowering the volume fader rather than using the mid EQ dial to fade out the remaining part of the song.
As far as I can tell, the EQ is "full kill": you turn down the bass, and the bass volume is turned down to zero. Turn down the highs and the high hats disappear completely, and even with the mids, if you have a song playing normally (all EQs at 12 o'clock) and you turn down the mids they do disappear completely.
The reason it doesn't feel like "full kill" like we all know it on other DJ mixers is that the centre frequency "bandwidth" is narrower than the gap left by the lows and the highs when they are taken away.
Just by reading the links you posted I guess we'd call this a "semi-parametric" EQ. We can alter some things (all 3 frequencies - and I'm sure that is what's going on when you alter the values btw) but they haven't given the option to alter the "bandwidth" of the mids.
I've got a good understanding of how filters and EQs work, and I'm fairly sure that what they've given us is a good parametric EQ, it just feels strange because it's different to how other DJ EQs work.
I actually quite like it, because on a lot of mixers, if you kill the mids, you lose nearly all of the track apart from the deepest bass and the high hats (because of the wide bandwidth of the mid EQ to make it "full kill"), but with our new "semi parametric EQ" when you kill the mids you still get a lot of the track through, but with much quieter vocals or mid range instruments, so it's brilliant for layering a mix, maybe with an acapella or an instrument solo from another track.
Hope that helps to clear things up a bit! :-)
Before if I was mixing a track out I would kill the bass as the bass line of the new track came in, then fade out the highs then finally fade out the whatever was left using the "mids" dial on the old EQ.
Now, I just do exactly the same, but the final stage is lowering the volume fader rather than using the mid EQ dial to fade out the remaining part of the song.
As far as I can tell, the EQ is "full kill": you turn down the bass, and the bass volume is turned down to zero. Turn down the highs and the high hats disappear completely, and even with the mids, if you have a song playing normally (all EQs at 12 o'clock) and you turn down the mids they do disappear completely.
The reason it doesn't feel like "full kill" like we all know it on other DJ mixers is that the centre frequency "bandwidth" is narrower than the gap left by the lows and the highs when they are taken away.
Just by reading the links you posted I guess we'd call this a "semi-parametric" EQ. We can alter some things (all 3 frequencies - and I'm sure that is what's going on when you alter the values btw) but they haven't given the option to alter the "bandwidth" of the mids.
I've got a good understanding of how filters and EQs work, and I'm fairly sure that what they've given us is a good parametric EQ, it just feels strange because it's different to how other DJ EQs work.
I actually quite like it, because on a lot of mixers, if you kill the mids, you lose nearly all of the track apart from the deepest bass and the high hats (because of the wide bandwidth of the mid EQ to make it "full kill"), but with our new "semi parametric EQ" when you kill the mids you still get a lot of the track through, but with much quieter vocals or mid range instruments, so it's brilliant for layering a mix, maybe with an acapella or an instrument solo from another track.
Hope that helps to clear things up a bit! :-)
geposted Mon 03 Dec 12 @ 4:57 pm
DJAuz
Awesome reply, I totally agree, the new setting seems better than 'full', let's hope for a more advanced EQ in the new release! I agree with what you're saying, the result is just a change of habits (killing the volume rather than the EQ's), and the result is very good! It caught me out the other night, but now I know how it works I can work with it. You clearly know a billion times more about EQ than me, so I take me hat off to you buddy :-) You make perfect sense, and I think for now I'll keep using the parametric EQ, the bass kill with the final value set to 110 works brilliantly for me, it kills the bass more cleanly and doesn't bleed into the mids, which is perfect for layering. I like it a lot. I just gotta remember to kill the volume than kill the EQ's and I think it'll work just right!
geposted Mon 03 Dec 12 @ 6:15 pm
andytaylor125
Glad that was useful :-D
geposted Tue 04 Dec 12 @ 12:46 pm
sum.zero
if you want full kills just edit your mapping for your eqs [param_equal 100% ? eq_kill_XXX].
my vci400 mapping for the eqs:
<map value="EQ_HIGH" action="eq_high & param_equal 100% ? eq_kill_high" />
<map value="EQ_MID" action="eq_mid & param_equal 100% ? eq_kill_mid" />
<map value="EQ_LOW" action="eq_low & param_equal 100% ? eq_kill_low" />
my vci400 mapping for the eqs:
<map value="EQ_HIGH" action="eq_high & param_equal 100% ? eq_kill_high" />
<map value="EQ_MID" action="eq_mid & param_equal 100% ? eq_kill_mid" />
<map value="EQ_LOW" action="eq_low & param_equal 100% ? eq_kill_low" />
geposted Thu 06 Dec 12 @ 11:55 am
the SOUND INSURGENT
BOOM!!
Been looking a solution for that, Thanks!!
Been looking a solution for that, Thanks!!
geposted Thu 06 Dec 12 @ 12:07 pm
sum.zero
transcription error: should be param_equal 0% ? eq_kill_XXX
geposted Thu 06 Dec 12 @ 12:21 pm
DJAuz
Oh boy.. you sir, are my hero.. thank you thank you thank you!
geposted Thu 06 Dec 12 @ 10:02 pm
