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Forum: General Discussion

Topic: key tone problems - Page: 2

Dieses Thema ist veraltet und kann veraltete oder falsche Informationen enthalten.

Good discussion and all the politics aside (I have used vinyl for 20 years so I have a decent ear for a mix), does anybody ever get Camelot B values from vdj scans?

I don't, and I have about 40,000 tracks of genres ranging from Motown to Bashment via rock, hip hop, all styles of house and a bit of dubstep so on so forth.

I emailed support and they kindly copied this from the user guide (which I have already read extensively) "The Key Detection Engine strongly favors minor keys, as most studio production songs are in minor key. But if the key is strongly major, it will be reported as a major key."

Some of you are quite knowledgable and I was hoping somebody here might be able to help me with something that support couldn't be bothered attempting lol!

Many thanks ;)
 
It just seems to be a quirk of Atomix (or someone working there) that they are of the opinion that "most songs are minor".

It's quite obvious in the real world that this is not the case.

There are huge numbers of songs that have a major key.

The issue has already been raised several times before, but as yet there's been no improvement.

Maybe it'll change in VDJ 8?

Until then, if you want more accurate results I would suggest using Mixed In Key or similar software that doesn't favour certain keys.
 
software is never going to read major keys, they are all the same notes just different route notes, if a tune is happy switch it around, the camalot wheel the difference between Major and relative minor is just the letter, change the letter eg 10A is B minor, 10B is D major, vdj even updates the alpha key when you update the camalot aswell...

if you take a look at the advice for using the camalot wheel it still says you should mix 10B with either 9A, 9B, 10A, 11A, 11B. So as long as it detects the correct keys it doesn't really matter if you are soley rellying on the camalot system.

allthough it might be nice to get a script verb to set the key to its relative key, but I should be able to get it to work with phantoms watchdog plugin... give me a minute..


M=major
m=minor

CM------>Am
C#M---->A#m
DM------>Bm
D#M---->Cm
EM------>C#m
FM------>Dm
F#M---->D#m
GM------>Em
G#M---->Fm
A#M---->F#m
BM------>Gm
CM------>G#m

EDIT ==========================

cant make it work :'(

tried this and it only changes the key while the track is playing not the actual key that vdj has in the browser...
deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 1 ? deck 1 set_key 'C' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 2 ? deck 1 set_key 'C#' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 3 ? deck 1 set_key 'D' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 4 ? deck 1 set_key 'D#' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 5 ? deck 1 set_key 'E' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 6 ? deck 1 set_key 'F' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 7 ? deck 1 set_key 'F#' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 8 ? deck 1 set_key 'G' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 9 ? deck 1 set_key 'G#' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 10 ? deck 1 set_key 'A' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 11 ? deck 1 set_key 'A#' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 12 ? deck 1 set_key 'B' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 21 ? deck 1 set_key 'F#m' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 22 ? deck 1 set_key 'Gm' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 23 ? deck 1 set_key 'G#m' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 24 ? deck 1 set_key 'Am' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 25 ? deck 1 set_key 'A#m' :  deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 26 ? deck 1 set_key 'Bm' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 27 ? deck 1 set_key 'Cm' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 28 ? deck 1 set_key 'C#m' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 29 ? deck 1 set_key 'Dm' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 30 ? deck 1 set_key 'D#m' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 31 ? deck 1 set_key 'Em' : deck 1 var 'WD_ORKEY' 32 ? deck 1 set_key 'Fm'
 
synthet1c wrote :
software is never going to read major keys


Mixed In Key seems to manage it OK....

VDJ being wrong doesn't bother me as I do use MIK, but it would be nice if it worked properly.
 
This thread hurts my brain! Will there be a test on this lol??
 
dizzyrocks2001 wrote :
This thread hurts my brain! Will there be a test on this lol??


Just simple if you just spend a time to read and understand the principles of the music scales. If you were at the band or play at the band before it is easy for you to understand about the principles of those scale. I was playing at the band for almost seven years as keyboardist/pianist and the things that i could see which makes you confuses is the term used here are wrong it must be a "RELATIVE MINOR" meaning you have to find the relative minor of the major key not harmonic. The harmonic minor scale has just one tonally effective mode and that is the scale conventionally known as the harmonic minor scale you don't have to find the harmonic because it is just tone of a minor scales and doesn't have any relation to major scales/notes and the reason that the harmonic minor scale is used as the harmonic foundation of the minor mode is that, despite its melodic deficiencies, If you’ve studied the circle of fifths in the harmony section, you’ll notice the relative minor scales listed right beneath the major scales. They’re the same set of notes and have the same key signature. So, knowing the scale relations will really simplify a lot of essential stuff, and to help you in understanding keys and songs tunes better so do this: If you have a small keyboard or a synths this is how you will understand the principles easily by marking those keys by C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C-this is the 2-octaves of the musical notes/keys. So to find the relative minor of the major keys in ascending manner you have to move six whole notes up and that is your relative minor and if descending manner you have move 4 half notes down (it includes the sharp and flats notes). Those in between each keys are (sharp - # and Flats - b in music while playing if you move up keys/notes that is sharp and if down that is flats). For example the keynote of "C" major your relative minor is "A" minor, means even if you have a tracks having key of C major you can play the other track on the key of A minor without any problems. Harmonic is the wrong term being used here. The guys who made that charts probably not a musician.
 
the camalot system actually follows the circle of fifths... it doesn't go (C = 5A - C# = 6A)... it is actually C=5A - G = 6A), that is how you naturally raise or lower the intensity while playing


G#m---->1 A fifth from C#m)
Am------>8 A (fifth from Dm)
A#m---->3 A fifth from Cm)
Bm------>10 A (fifth from C#m)
Cm------>5 A (fifth from Fm)
C#m---->12 A [/color]fifth from F#m)
Dm------>7 A fifth from Gm)
D#m---->2 A [/color]fifth from G#m)
Em------>9 A fifth from Am)
Fm------>4 A fifth from A#m)
F#m---->11 Afifth from A#m)
Gm------>6 A [color=BLUE]fifth from Cm)[/color]

OR

G#m---->1 A
D#m---->2 A
A#m---->3 A
Fm------>4 A
Cm------>5 A
Gm------>6 A
Dm------>7 A
Am------>8 A
Em------>9 A
Bm------>10 A
F#m---->11 A
C#m---->12 A

And that is the two ways you can use the camalot system, by moving one number you are going to the next key in order of the circle of fifths, or you can go up or down 2 camalots to go to the next full tone from the key you are in. It's very musical theory based, just easier to understand.. For the reason that the major and minor ahve the same number designated I don't think its improtant it the software detects major or minor keys, use your ears, if it sounds major, change "A" to "B" and vdj will change the key of the track to the relative major of the minor it detected
 
Blulite wrote :
seeing as no one knew the answer ive discovered it all on my lonesome without the help of the production team.

for those of you that dont know, well heres the answer.

the camelot wheel is a simplified version of the circle of 4th & 5ths

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

now if you look at the circle of 5ths you will notice at the 4 oclock position we have E major

E major on the circle of fifths is within the key range of C#minor.

also several of the other keys i have quieried are contained within the circle of 5ths.

it would appear that the production team have created their key database from not only the keys in the camelot wheel, but with those from the circle of 5ths too.

this explains why there are keys such as C#minor detected within vdj but are not shown on the camelot wheel.

i have yet to find the link between the 2 and why some keys seem to be missing from both but i will sort that out later.

unless someone has an answer as to why there are different keys on both wheels?


Yup Blu figured that out along time ago, lol!

@Groovin since you use MIK do you really have to comment on every key thread there is, everybody already knows how you feel, smh.......

It's only meant to put you in the right direction, besides in the end you should be using headphones cause your ears never lie (unless your tone deaf). No software is gonna be perfect, period.....

Good Day
Huey
 
beatbreaker1 wrote :
do you really have to comment on every key thread there is


If the subject comes up (however many times) why shouldn't I be able to comment?

If Atomix sort out the key detection so that it gives equal unbiased results then the topic wouldn't even arise.
 
I may well try MIK but am a bit reluctant to purchase it unless I know it is at least reasonably accurate. Is there a trial version available?

A friend suggested I look at some tracks on Beatport to make a comparison. I just did two, and two only, picked at random.

LLOYD TRIMMER - SHE SAYS - BEATPORT A MINOR (8A) - VDJ D MINOR (7A)
WILDKATS - PERPETRATING - BEATPORT A MINOR (8A) - VDJ C# MINOR (12A)

Looked on there for another, one of my remixes

MEISHA MOORE - BRAND NEW DAY (BROCKNEY CEE FUNKY) - BEATPORT A MAJOR (11B) - VDJ A MINOR (8A)

I studied music theory during my degree in the 90's and got a merit to Level 8 but have forgotten it, I appreciate the usefulness though!

Clearly though, on this anyway, using VDJ Camelot values is going to be destructive. I am really disappointed that the only answer 'Support' gave to my question was copied and pasted from the user guide.
 
Guys, I have found a solution!!!

You can get hold of a free version of Mixed in Key v2.5 (not able to tell you where so google it lol) or purchase the new one. The old version will write the Camelot values into the comments tag on the id3. (you have to tell it to do so by 'personalising it) It takes a while to scan all your tracks so shut down all programs and run it overnight.

Getting VDJ to automatically enter them into the comments column was cumbersome, check the post below, the one by me on about the 5th or 6th down might help if you have problems.

I only have LE, the pro version might be easier anyway.

Hope it helps.


http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/157754/PC_Version_Technical_Support/updated_all_itunes_id3_tags__doesnt_carry_over_to_vdj___.html
 
Addition to the above - compared the MIK analysis for about 20 tracks to the keys given on Beatport - 100% accuracy.
 
Pretty unprofessional bro..........its obvious you don't take pride in your trade, its only 58 bucks.

Smh.......(another future under cutter on the come up)
Huey
 
Thanks Huey. Politics aside (once again), the version I got was actually free. It is from 2006, very basic indeed but it works. May well shell out the £39 for the version 5 if I feel that I require the additional functionality such as waveforms etc.

You are welcome for the rest of the advice though. I believe in sharing positive knowledge.

EDIT - I asked above if anybody knew of a trial version of MIK. I found v2.5. Full functionality is provided in v5. I do appreciate these forums because there are many people who take the time to share useful information. Thanks a million to you guys! All the best :)
 
calecunningham wrote :
Addition to the above - compared the MIK analysis for about 20 tracks to the keys given on Beatport - 100% accuracy.


Beatport probably use MIK to get the keys in the first place!
 
You guys are obsessing waaay too much over this mixing in key thing. If I'm playing a set and I know the perfect song to drop next I'm not going to worry about whether the camelot table says it's okay or not lol. Stop being so clinical and stop worrying so much about what key the song is in. Besides, there are a ton of techniques for mixing tracks with different keys and still make it sound good. There are ways to mix two tracks of different keys and make it work, learn how! It's a party, not a music theory class for f**k's sake lol!
 
Hang on a second...

Just because we're discussing keys doesn't mean that's the only way we mix.

When I'm out doing a mobile gig or playing in a bar etc. I join the tracks together using whatever method suits at the time. Could be chopping straight from one to another, could be a short mix, could be using FX. I certainly don't give priority to a track purely because it's in the same key as the previous one.

The point is that I'm aware of keys, and the method of mixing using key changes. Another tool in the box. I'm not tied to it.
 


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