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Forum: General Discussion

Topic: Ok bit of a daft question

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But when say mixing two songs, or for instance i have deck 1 playing with my volumes up, i then mix in deck 2 with volume up, am i sending two (how do i explain this) lots of gain, volume, to speakers, in other words if deck 1 is loud and not clipping speakers does raising volume of deck 2 increase this load or are both combined at the output?? Hard to explain but i know what i want to say, just can't describe it well!
 
geposted Sat 19 Dec 15 @ 12:38 pm
The art is "mixing" the volume level (and bass) of both tracks so the overall volume stays the same throughout the transition. There should be no increase when both tracks are played on top of each other.
 
Yes, probably wording it wrong, but say, deck 1 at desired volume, and i put deck 2 at same volume, is that output combined rather than say 2 levels so double just one ( again hard to explain)
 
The answer to the question is "yes". Of course playing two tracks increases the level at the output (which could trigger the limiter if you're not careful).

It's just like running two taps - it makes more water come out. Using two speakers instead of one - it makes the sound louder.

As Keith said, the DJs job is to balance things. However, a well recorded track (not over compressed) will have a certain amount of dynamic range.

Some parts will be loud and others will be quieter. In most cases, the DJ will transition during a quieter section of at least one track - the intro, a break etc. so the level increase should not be as much of an issue because you're not playing the loudest parts of two tracks on top of each other.
 
Well yes, but playing the two in this way does not make it twice as loud hence my query regards the output level from the mixer to the speaker. I was just curious as to whether at some point in the processing the signal got combine/limited with digital processing . I mean my master VU does not shoot off the scale I understand mixing, but this is just something i was curious with, and this is probably a better way of putting my question (i think)
 
Well the thing is, what your ears hear as sounding "twice as loud" is not the same thing as actually being twice as loud (twice the signal level).

Ears are funny things. They're non linear, meaning that something with twice the volume doesn't actually sound twice as loud.

It's generally accepted that an increase in level of 10dB is required in order to sound twice as loud - but playing two tracks on top of each other does not increase the output by 10dB, despite it logically being 1 + 1 = 2.

See here http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/3-6db/
 
So i guess my question boils down to how many db does it increase the signal by ( i think) ???

Edit Ok so that link kind of answers it (confusing) thanks
Amazing how the manufacturers play with figures "Go from 100 watts to 200 watts and that’s a 3dB increase."
I remember back in the day gigging with a 100 watt amp quite happily now talking of 2 x 500w in a speaker Really?
Wish i still had the old amp, be nice to try against todays amps at 10 x the wattage ;-)
I guess they sound better today though and don't use valves lol
 
It's quite possible that the dynamic range of a typical track will be 3 to 6dB. Could be more, could be less.

The older the track, the more likely it will have a wider dynamic range, because tracks produced now tend to be limited/maximized to the point of removing a large amount of the dynamic range.

10x the wattage (all else being equal) will / should sound "twice as loud" to your ears.
 
yes, i definitely find that with older tracks
 
Note that the signal only increases 6dB if there was still room to do so.
If you play 2 songs together that are already using the full digital range, then there will be moments where the sum exceeds the digital range.
In the case of virtualdj (when virtualdj is doing the mixing) the limiter will kick in, reducing the volume during these moments so that the signal fits in the digital range again.
In the case of a hardware mixer it will depend on the mixer. It could have a limiter as well, it could do digital hard clipping, or the outputs could more gradually saturate and introduce distortion as the output is pushed over the normal working range.
 
Adion Ok so that too answers my question, it is being limited by software and possibly mixer.
Does that apply if using a mixer as controller when using VDJ, i.e does vdj do same before it gets to mixer ( i.e not software mixing)
Thanks all
 
It is difficult to compare just the power of the amplifier. To know what sound it produces you must also take into account which speakers you are driving.
Because high power was not available (or probably more expensive), I think speakers designed in those days also focused more on sensitivity (how much sound they produce per watt) (which is not necessarily good for sound quality, but that's a trade-off that had to be made)
 
paulpa66 wrote :
Adion Ok so that too answers my question, it is being limited by software and possibly mixer.
Does that apply if using a mixer as controller when using VDJ, i.e does vdj do same before it gets to mixer ( i.e not software mixing)
Thanks all

When using a controller it depends on the controller being used. Most controllers just send the fader positions to vdj, so it is still vdj doing the mixing (and limiting if necessary)
Some controllers expect vdj to send the individual channels to the controller however, after which the controller does the mixing.
 
Quite confusing really, but nice to try and get your head around rather than just unboxing kit and blasting it. Nice to understand the workings
 
Refer back to the answers given in your "clipping" thread. VDJ is digital, so the absolute maximum is 0dB. There's no headroom above that.

Analogue equipment (such as a hardware mixer) will have headroom of maybe 12dB or more, meaning that when its VU meters are showing 0dB, there is another 12dB of "ceiling space" above that to allow for peaks in the signal. You could set VDJ to have 12dB of headroom too.
 
I will suss this one day, and one day be set right ;-) Working on it I have at least set vdj to -3db now ( i understand the 0dB with digital hurrah) and to date not clipped the new speakers
 
It would be nice if the VU meters in VDJ actually showed the dB amount for the various segments (I know this needs to be done in the skin).

If you wanted to see for yourself, you could get hold of some test signals (can be found via Google) and look at where they show on the VDJ meters.

For example I have some 0dB pink noise and some -3dB pink noise. I also have a 1kHz test tone which is a standard thing.
 
It's also knowing if the controllers 0dB is really 0dB
I will look into test signals and see how to do that, be worthwhile doing

And maybe i should get using software mixing rather than ext mixer mixing
 


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